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welcome to the next in our webinar

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series with uh steve and dave who are

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going to be uh talking through on how we

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identify the habitable habitable

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environments in our solar systems easy

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for me to say as i say

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um just a couple of announcements um

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as before the white paper the concept

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document uh is currently in read-only

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mode and uh that will be flipped over to

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comment mode

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as soon as the presentations are

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finished the other thing is for anyone

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who might be listening to this just in

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audio

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or who comes along and watches this

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later the slides for this presentation

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can be accessed directly from the event

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on the astrobiology

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website so you go to today's event click

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on that and you'll see a link directly

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to the slides on that

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and again if you want to go back to any

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of the previous webinars each of the

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events is now linked to the recording of

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the webinars i think we're running one

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week behind

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but those will all gradually catch up

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and

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uh the process for today just in case

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we've got anyone with us who hasn't been

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to one of these before during the

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presentation section we're encouraging

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everyone to um use the text chat box

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if you have any points you want to make

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or questions that you want to raise and

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the presenters will pick them up as long

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as it doesn't derail where they're going

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at that time once the presentation is

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finished um we'll

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be encouraging you to use the phone

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lines to ask questions if we have a lot

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of people and i see the the room is

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gradually filling up then ideally if you

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can use the hand raising mechanism which

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you'll see i was getting this wrong sort

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of up at the top of the screen that way

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if you notice as i click on it um it

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raises the hand next to my name and that

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just lets us call you off in order and

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keep keep some semblance of order around

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the way we go okay and with that i will

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pass over to steve

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all right thanks everyone for joining

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this discussion

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um

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dave and i will try to present uh this

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subset of a larger discussion um

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and uh lots of lots of time for disc for

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conversation at the end uh so this

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specific topic is how can we identify

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habitable environments in our solar

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system and we're viewing this as

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encompassing a lot of planetary

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exploration uh in general and

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i'll just give a reminder of some of the

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background uh this is based on uh some a

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lot of brainstorming that has happened

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within the last few months

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and a lot of that occurred

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at a at a meeting in wallops flight

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space flight center

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our flight facility

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in um in june and this is this is a list

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of some of the people who are involved

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on site and virtually and that many of

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whom have contributed since um i i'm

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sure some of you are looking at the uh

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the document that has emerged uh as a

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result right now

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and if you look at you can look at older

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versions of the document by looking at a

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revision history and you can see some of

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the original material that fed into this

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condensation that uh

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that we dave and i have largely put

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together in the last few weeks

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um

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so

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this particular document comes about

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at a request

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to reorganize things along along the

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same shown here so these are the

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documents that you'll see online that

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we're covering in the last week

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and uh this week

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um

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environments in our solar system hits

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with broader questions

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of um how do habitable systems form uh

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how can a world generate life and how do

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we search for life in the solar system

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uh once we understand a habitability um

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and where it occurs uh and beyond that

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how do we extend those questions to

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habitable planets uh and the search for

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life beyond our solar system

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all right so those original documents

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that i mentioned that came about uh

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during that wallops meeting

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um are

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titled as as you see here

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covering the search for life in other

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worlds in the solar system how how we

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would remotely find and identify

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inhabitants

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uh where on on mars uh life could have

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emerged uh where it could exist today um

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questions as specific as a focus on

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perchlorate as an electron acceptor for

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organisms so um you can see there's an

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emphasis that emerged

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based on the interest of the people who

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contributed to the document um you know

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there was a group of people who were

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interested specifically in titan as the

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national biological target

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um

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and there were there's another group

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that was interested in trying to ask the

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broad question of how can a world

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generate life

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and how we can characterize and

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understand um those worlds so so there's

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there's both a specific aspect and an

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effort to generalize to processes and so

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we'll try to be faithful uh to the

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specific questions that came about in

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those individual documents while

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also trying to group things into

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processes

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okay so

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looking at the the thinking that emerged

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from this exercise uh we were led to

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identify some starting questions basic

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questions of um

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how planetary exploration can inform our

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understanding of where life could occur

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uh basically we need to understand

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habitability first

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and we need to ask questions about

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specifically in the next decade but as

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science progresses in general

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what measurements and models are needed

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to constrain our definition of

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habitability

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and as we as we explore the solar system

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by all the means that are available at

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our uh disposal um how can we understand

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habitability in that context both past

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and present uh in the context of planets

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and objects that we're observing my

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definition of planet is pretty loose uh

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i'd be interested in discussing what

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people think of when they think of the

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objects that should be included in this

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discussion

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but generally

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the the idea is to be very open and to

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think about all the different questions

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that we should really be asking

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specifically in american decade when it

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comes to looking for habitability in the

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solar system

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okay so

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the the documents that were the source

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for this material inevitably

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touched on different modes of

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exploration and so we thought it would

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be useful to

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organize things loosely in those terms

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uh specifically uh what what we can

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learn from remote sensing that's both

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ground-based

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and orbital

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by looking at the broad characteristics

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of objects of interest

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mapping environmental indicators um

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and this

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can be viewed as having a feed forward

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to the the other mode of exploration

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that follows that uh in this list which

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is in situ exploration um getting down

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to detail uh and asking some similar

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questions um but inevitably with it with

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a different

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um set of set of tools at our disposal

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that allows us to to address those

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questions in unique ways

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similarly

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there are examples of sample return

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within the solar system that have

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yielded

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important

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answers to questions about about the

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origin of the solar system and sample

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return figures heavily in considerations

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of where astrobiology is headed

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so that's something that we want to

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include in the discussion and that

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certainly figured into the documents

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that that were the source for this

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so

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the first of those themes uh remote

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sensing

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uh habitability and indicators uh we if

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you look at the document i imagine a lot

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of you are looking at the document

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online right now

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a lot of the questions from those source

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documents ended up in this remote

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sensing section now that's not to say

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that a lot of those questions don't also

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apply to in-situ or sample return and

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really the document might be reorganized

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so the introduction and

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touches on some of those questions

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in any case

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some of the themes that come up in the

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context of searching for habitability in

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the solar system which are

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broadly addressed by remote sensing are

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determining global and regional scales

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of processes um

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i think what are the inventories of

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resources that are related to

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habitability uh

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and

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again that that relates to a future more

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specific uh investigation uh as an

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example um

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you know we want to do

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or one would be interested in getting

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high high-resolution maps of our surface

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in order to understand where to look for

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habitability and my view is that

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in in

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future exploration one needs to get down

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below the meter scale to understand

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where process related to habitability uh

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occur

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okay so

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specifically when looking at what those

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environments

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are we want to look for

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the materials that are related to life

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and our understanding of life is that

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solvents are required for fostering

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chemical disequilibria uh specifically

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water has a strong role as we're all i'm

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sure quite

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familiar

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so we want to look for evidence and for

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water understand the duration uh

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lifetime of water

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and what are the what are the subsurface

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reservoirs of water be they on um

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enceladus europa mars uh potentially

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even water on the moon is is important

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in the context of habitability

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so

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in general we're looking for

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the ingredients of life in the solar

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system and this is familiar ground

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looking for carbon hydrogen oxygen

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nitrogen phosphorus sulfur

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looking for key chemical signatures okay

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so these are these are the broad things

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uh sources of energy um both solar

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energy and also internal energy uh and

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also processes that that might drive

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chemical basic equilibria

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and then asking what's what's the um

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what are the processes that either

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destroy or preserve those signatures of

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habitability okay so

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these are these are some of the things

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00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:42,640
that have emerged uh from considering

289
00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:44,160
the broad input

290
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:46,240
but specific questions that were raised

291
00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:48,880
in the the source documents um that are

292
00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:51,040
captured in this remote sensing section

293
00:10:55,430 --> 00:10:53,040
were uh what's the nature of water rock

294
00:10:58,550 --> 00:10:55,440
interactions on on different objects uh

295
00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:58,560
what are sources of water and gases that

296
00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:00,480
are observed in the examples that were

297
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:03,279
raised were mars and enceladus but

298
00:11:06,949 --> 00:11:05,600
generally where we find emissions what's

299
00:11:08,389 --> 00:11:06,959
what's the what are the sources for

300
00:11:09,990 --> 00:11:08,399
those

301
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:10,000
and what are what are the processes that

302
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:13,600
preserve or alter them again

303
00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:15,600
and uh touching on chemical energy

304
00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:17,839
sources there were there were specific

305
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:20,160
questions about oxidants on mars like

306
00:11:24,949 --> 00:11:22,800
perchlorate uh in the context of titan

307
00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:24,959
what is the source of oxygen uh for

308
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:27,600
putative life forms um

309
00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:29,200
what are the sources for reductance in

310
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:30,800
general on different objects that might

311
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:32,720
be habitable uh what are the internal

312
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:34,079
sources of energy

313
00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:35,360
um

314
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:36,720
what else

315
00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:38,880
and uh again what's the distribution of

316
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:41,680
habitable environments okay so for these

317
00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:42,480
these

318
00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:44,959
uh modes of exploration we identified we

319
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:48,160
wanted to provide examples of past

320
00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:51,360
and uh future missions that are that are

321
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:54,480
slated to be launched um that that

322
00:11:59,509 --> 00:11:56,480
contribute to addressing these questions

323
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:59,519
and we wanted to cast that very broadly

324
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:01,519
so in the category of remote sensing i

325
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:03,519
include the telescopes as an example of

326
00:12:07,509 --> 00:12:05,760
ground-based observatories that can be

327
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:07,519
used have been used to address questions

328
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,160
related to habitability uh there's a

329
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:12,880
host of other missions mars missions uh

330
00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:15,200
the voyager galileo cassini missions and

331
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:18,240
missions um in the future um

332
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:20,560
that are listed here

333
00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:21,920
this list is not meant to be

334
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:23,360
comprehensive and i hope that in our

335
00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:26,320
discussion we can touch on other

336
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,440
aspects

337
00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:29,760
also perhaps on uh missions that have

338
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:30,560
been

339
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:33,920
studied as possible future aspects

340
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,069
oh okay i guess i'll take over this part

341
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:44,639
of the uh of the presentation now we're

342
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:48,000
switching now to in situ exploration um

343
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,839
so the key role then again of the

344
00:12:53,829 --> 00:12:51,680
orbital observations in addition to

345
00:12:55,269 --> 00:12:53,839
documenting sort of global scale process

346
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:55,279
is to

347
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:57,200
contribute to the solomonic decision of

348
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:58,560
where do you send a lander to the

349
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:59,680
surface

350
00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:01,360
so whereas a lander

351
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:02,800
has a

352
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:04,399
a lot of things it can do by being right

353
00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:05,920
up against the surface in terms of

354
00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:08,720
observations in detail uh it is very

355
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,920
hostage uh to your global perspective

356
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:13,680
and your best guesses to the most

357
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:16,240
promising places on the surface of any

358
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:18,959
object and so you can see how these two

359
00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:20,800
modes of exploration really have to be

360
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:22,800
done in concert with each other but once

361
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:25,279
you're down at the surface uh that what

362
00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:26,639
you're seeing here

363
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:29,440
is a whole checklist of features that

364
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:32,320
they that a land or rover

365
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:33,120
could

366
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:36,160
to really characterize the current

367
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:37,680
environment as well as the past

368
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:38,959
environment and

369
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:41,600
you know and so part of this is to put

370
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:43,920
out to the astrobiology community

371
00:13:47,190 --> 00:13:45,200
uh the

372
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,200
types of measurements in a very generic

373
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:49,519
sense that represent opportunities for

374
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:51,440
this community to utilize

375
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,519
to to do the kind of characterization

376
00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:56,000
that they feel is important uh to

377
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:58,639
address this issue of habitability uh

378
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:00,880
not only whether it existed but how long

379
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,600
it it persisted as some kind of a

380
00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:05,760
measure of

381
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:07,440
you know the past environment and the

382
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,959
prospect that it might have harbored

383
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:11,040
life at some time so i think without

384
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:12,480
going down this list i think when you

385
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:13,600
look at it you can it's pretty

386
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,240
self-explanatory it really addresses

387
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:18,480
morphologic features mineralogic

388
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:19,440
features

389
00:14:24,949 --> 00:14:22,320
chemist chemistry isotopes all the usual

390
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,959
suspects uh that are not only

391
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:26,800
examples of of categories of

392
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:28,959
biosignatures they are examples of

393
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:30,800
categories of environmental indicators

394
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:34,399
that could inform the decision to to

395
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:37,040
about habitability and at the bottom not

396
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:39,440
last but not least is the whole

397
00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:41,680
topic of subsurface

398
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,920
environments and therefore

399
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:45,600
astrobiologists need to think about

400
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:47,680
geophysical and geochemical indicators

401
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:50,079
of the subsurface as it appears for many

402
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,839
of the objects in particular the icy

403
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:53,839
moons of the outer solar system the

404
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:56,560
subservice is a very promising venue for

405
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,639
certainly present habitability as well

406
00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:00,639
as past so

407
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:02,880
these are the kinds of

408
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,480
of measurements that uh that the

409
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:06,160
community should be making inputs about

410
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,760
as to how

411
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:09,839
missions should be capable as they go

412
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,680
forward and of course

413
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,440
with greatest relevance perhaps to

414
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:14,800
future missions where there's still a

415
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:17,040
lot of input to the nature of what those

416
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:18,399
missions might be

417
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:21,120
uh the next slide which i have to use

418
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:24,320
doing this i got it thank you uh again

419
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:26,480
example key questions and again as steve

420
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:29,040
mentioned we tried to pull these from

421
00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:32,160
the source text document that that have

422
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:33,680
been developed over the last several

423
00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:36,240
months and so obviously some of these

424
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:38,800
are recognizable again and similar to

425
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:40,800
what we saw in the remote sensing

426
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:41,680
section

427
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:43,440
and that is of course what are the major

428
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:46,240
lithologies at the surface as indicators

429
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:49,600
of of the types of ingredients and and

430
00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:51,920
and features that are needed to support

431
00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:54,800
habitability and obviously titan europa

432
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:56,800
and mars are going to be quite different

433
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:58,240
objects with respect to those

434
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,160
lithologies and they're those those

435
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,160
crustal compositions really provide a

436
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:04,639
context for any habitable conditions

437
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,240
that we would be able to get direct

438
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,800
access to and of course to the extent

439
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:11,440
that surface materials given clue as to

440
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,680
what's in the subsurface perhaps because

441
00:16:16,389 --> 00:16:15,440
of some kind of an eruptive event or

442
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:16,399
something

443
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:18,800
they also give us

444
00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:21,440
to proceed with subsurface exploration

445
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:23,360
uh water rock interaction steve already

446
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,360
mentioned sources and sinks of things

447
00:16:30,389 --> 00:16:28,000
obviously inventories all the usual

448
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:30,399
stuff organic matter now of course that

449
00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:31,920
you're at the surface

450
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:33,680
you have the ability to do much more

451
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:35,519
about detection of organic matter and

452
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:37,199
characterization of it

453
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:39,199
and we're not just talking about organic

454
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:41,040
matter as an indicator of life

455
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:43,360
necessarily in the case of an object

456
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,320
like titan or maybe europa uh organic

457
00:16:51,829 --> 00:16:48,639
matter could tell you a lot about the uh

458
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,839
the the processes sort of large-scale

459
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:54,240
processes that uh are related to

460
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:56,320
determining habitable environments and

461
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:58,079
of course obviously organic matter in

462
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,160
itself is a source of a key ingredient

463
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:01,920
potentially to any life form that might

464
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:02,959
be there

465
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:04,559
and so

466
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,799
likewise oxidants reductants to address

467
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,160
the energy

468
00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:10,880
aspect and then just general conditions

469
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:13,280
um you know how saline are fresh is the

470
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,600
water uh and how does that comply with

471
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:17,679
our concept you know how does that

472
00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:19,439
interact with our concepts of what is

473
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:22,000
required for habitability uh temperature

474
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:24,240
ph radiation all these things contribute

475
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:27,120
to an assessment of habitability um and

476
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,559
i keep i just want to make a few more

477
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:31,600
comments about this idea of preservation

478
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:32,559
um

479
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:34,080
you know it's not just enough to think

480
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,679
that you've you've landed at a place

481
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:36,960
where that might have been habitable in

482
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:39,840
the past what you also really need is to

483
00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:41,760
have materials that you can then access

484
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,000
with your spacecraft that really will

485
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,320
inform you about more details about what

486
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:48,000
past environments or even present

487
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:49,200
environments might be and so

488
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,799
preservation is really an important

489
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,880
thing here it's not just doesn't just

490
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,120
apply to biosignatures it applies to any

491
00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:57,200
indicator of an environment that is

492
00:18:02,150 --> 00:17:59,440
remote from you or either because of

493
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:02,160
time or because it's in the subsurface

494
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:04,480
we need to think about these landing

495
00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:06,320
sites and think about measurements that

496
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:08,559
really help us to assess

497
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:10,799
you know the materials that we are able

498
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:12,960
to observe with respect to how well they

499
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,400
have preserved the information that

500
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:16,640
we're after and so this applies not only

501
00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:19,120
to biosignatures but to indicators of

502
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:21,679
past conditions with particular emphasis

503
00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:24,080
on habitability and so i think this

504
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:26,320
concept of taphonomy this is a word not

505
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:29,039
familiar to some of you is is just the

506
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:31,840
relationship between an uh it's from to

507
00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:33,840
actually in it's a biological term the

508
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:35,919
relationship between the living organism

509
00:18:39,909 --> 00:18:37,840
and its fossil equivalent preserved in

510
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:39,919
the rock record what are the changes

511
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:41,280
that happen how can you look at the

512
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:42,880
fossil and relate that back to the

513
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:45,360
original organism that whole area of

514
00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:47,280
study is called taphonomy and so in a

515
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:49,520
way maybe we should be talking about a

516
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:52,160
taponomy of environmental indicators how

517
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:54,080
does this indicator that's preserved in

518
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:56,000
front of you as your in your spacecraft

519
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:57,440
as you're looking at it how does that

520
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:58,960
relate to the original environment that

521
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,880
you're trying to understand so this is

522
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:02,640
an important part of

523
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:05,520
of planetary exploration that we're

524
00:19:09,669 --> 00:19:07,679
really now beginning to realize i think

525
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:09,679
particularly in mars exploration but

526
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:11,440
given the radiation environments of the

527
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:13,120
outer solar system i think it's also

528
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,160
relevant

529
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:16,400
okay so

530
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:18,559
with this measurements and capabilities

531
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:20,160
again i don't want to dwell on this too

532
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:21,280
much

533
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:23,679
a lot of this of course is heritage from

534
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,160
the rovers that we have sent to mars but

535
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:28,640
any any ot any spacecraft you send to

536
00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:30,640
the surface of any object in the outer

537
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:33,280
solar system or whatever uh

538
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:35,280
probably will be involved these sort of

539
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:38,400
generic measurement capabilities and so

540
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:40,400
in the context of these various objects

541
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:41,919
the astrobiology community needs to

542
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:42,960
think about

543
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:44,080
you know

544
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,720
what what what progress is needed in in

545
00:19:50,150 --> 00:19:48,080
the development of measurements

546
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:50,160
techniques instruments for spacecraft

547
00:19:54,630 --> 00:19:52,000
that will not only make the measurement

548
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:54,640
but that can be accommodated within the

549
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,559
resource constraints of that mission and

550
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:58,320
it's not just the size of it and the

551
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,799
power capabilities of the spacecraft but

552
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:02,720
as you can imagine these days it's the

553
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,520
budgetary constraints how can we

554
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:07,600
address this list effectively given all

555
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:09,200
these constraints on space flight

556
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:11,120
instruments and and achieve the

557
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:13,760
astrobiology objectives that we need and

558
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,760
not to ignore of course at the bottom of

559
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:18,240
this list the issues of mobility and

560
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:20,799
sample acquisition these are expensive

561
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:22,880
items and the question again to the

562
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:24,559
community if you wanted to explore the

563
00:20:28,470 --> 00:20:26,400
surface of titan or europa or whatever

564
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,480
how do you put together how do you

565
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:30,559
contribute to a science definition team

566
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:32,159
that was trying to come up with a design

567
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,240
for a spacecraft and so the community

568
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:36,159
needs to make inputs along these lines

569
00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:37,120
as well

570
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:38,799
in terms of the in the context of the

571
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:40,640
science that needs to needs to be

572
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:42,080
achieved

573
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:44,000
and so i think

574
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:47,840
we go to the next slide the themes

575
00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:50,000
okay now so that's pretty much it for

576
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:52,000
inside you and i think as some people

577
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:53,840
have already commented there needs to be

578
00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:56,559
more questions science questions and and

579
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:58,720
specific science investigations as

580
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:00,480
examples of the kinds of things we would

581
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,400
like to do in land admissions and so

582
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:06,159
i think steve and i were pretty faithful

583
00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:07,760
to trying to pull things out of the

584
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:10,400
source documents for this uh to populate

585
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,440
this template but we obviously want more

586
00:21:17,669 --> 00:21:15,760
input from folks now that they see sort

587
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:17,679
of this landscape of things that need to

588
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,000
be addressed uh what could be some more

589
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:22,400
example questions of astrobiology

590
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:24,720
investigations that would be done at the

591
00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:26,480
surface if you somehow see what's

592
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:28,159
already here is not adequate we that

593
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:30,080
would be great to have more input okay

594
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:32,400
the last major theme now did you want to

595
00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:35,440
address this steve or or me

596
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:40,710
oops you're in you're on mute if you

597
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:42,080
seem to be muted

598
00:21:46,149 --> 00:21:43,679
okay sorry uh

599
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:46,159
my gesturing was sufficient to say uh

600
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:49,120
i'm okay either way but um yeah dave i

601
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:50,640
thought you might have uh some

602
00:21:53,669 --> 00:21:52,159
particular perspectives on this so

603
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:53,679
please feel free

604
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:54,799
okay

605
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:56,960
well um

606
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,240
you know certainly from mars has been

607
00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:00,320
this progression from remote sensing to

608
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:02,320
land admissions and then the planning to

609
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:04,960
try to ultimately bring samples back

610
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:07,039
and i guess the key point is that

611
00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:08,400
perhaps some of the questions that

612
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:10,400
astrobiologists want to ask

613
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:12,400
just really require state-of-the-art

614
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:15,120
laboratories to address them and i think

615
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,320
you know part of the discussions that

616
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,919
i've had with steve and maybe also have

617
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,679
been some of the discussion groups has

618
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,840
been that already for the outer solar

619
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:23,280
system where you're trying to understand

620
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:25,760
the origins of volatiles and and just

621
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:27,520
the materials that comprise some of

622
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:29,440
these objects that this whole issue of

623
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:31,039
origins is really important and so

624
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,240
therefore

625
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,320
missions like genesis and stardust and

626
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:36,720
hayabusa basically

627
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,159
bringing samples back from very

628
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:40,640
primitive objects is a very important

629
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:42,880
perspective on understanding the origins

630
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:45,760
of these uh bodies and so

631
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:47,840
for example for even for the outer solar

632
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:49,760
system sample return is playing a very

633
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:51,120
important role

634
00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:53,600
clearly from the case of mars that's yet

635
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:56,559
to be achieved but um some of the

636
00:23:01,430 --> 00:22:59,120
reasons for for doing sample return uh

637
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:01,440
are outlined here and and the key point

638
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:03,440
here is that you're you're putting

639
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:05,440
bringing together suites of samples that

640
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:07,600
were carefully selected from known

641
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:09,200
environmental context and this is the

642
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:10,960
one advantage that a sample returned

643
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:13,360
from a big object has over a meteorite

644
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,200
that landed in your backyard or in

645
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:17,360
antarctica for that matter you you can

646
00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:19,200
go to the object and in

647
00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:21,120
known environmental context

648
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:23,440
choose the samples you want as opposed

649
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:25,039
posed to the samples that mother nature

650
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,039
delivered to you in the meteorite and

651
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:29,039
then bring that into state of the art

652
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:30,559
laboratory so it's in a way an

653
00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:32,880
optimization of two worlds good sample

654
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:35,200
selection state-of-the-art laboratory so

655
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,880
that's the core principle of sample

656
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:38,480
return

657
00:23:42,789 --> 00:23:40,480
and then of course as i just said for

658
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:42,799
primitive objects interpreting origins

659
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:44,640
and compositions of planetary bodies for

660
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:46,799
mars characterizing environmental

661
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:48,559
indicators in greater detail and of

662
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:51,039
course confirming any bio signatures is

663
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:52,640
a strong conviction in the mars

664
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,720
community that you really need to get

665
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:56,159
the state of the art laboratory

666
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,320
capability to really confirm a bio

667
00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:00,480
signature and for that i can only offer

668
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:02,480
you the debate of the

669
00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:05,120
allen hills meteorite and how even in

670
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,280
state of the art laboratories there were

671
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,520
some very contentious and unresolved

672
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,760
issues for quite a while ability to

673
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:14,000
respond to unanticipated findings by

674
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:15,440
employing additional measurements and

675
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:17,520
developing new methods and that is the

676
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:20,000
idea of the ability to adapt to a

677
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:22,640
finding that you did not anticipate

678
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:24,080
when you

679
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:26,240
return to that sample and of course all

680
00:24:30,549 --> 00:24:27,919
of this involves planetary protection

681
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:30,559
considerations so the key thing here to

682
00:24:34,870 --> 00:24:32,960
the astrobiology community is for the

683
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,880
all of you with your laboratories on the

684
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:37,120
earth uh you know with your capabilities

685
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:38,720
and so forth

686
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:41,520
how should no what is your role really

687
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:44,960
in moving astrobiology forward in in

688
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:47,679
exploration of the solar system

689
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,760
assuming that you could get samples back

690
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:51,840
and actually analyze them in your lab

691
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:53,279
what is it that what are the

692
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:54,960
capabilities that we need to develop

693
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:56,960
what are the key questions that really

694
00:25:01,430 --> 00:24:59,440
require sample return and of course

695
00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:01,440
that is a way of putting science in the

696
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:04,240
driver's seat to push for uh sample

697
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:07,279
return in in areas and in examples where

698
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:09,039
the astrobiology community thinks are

699
00:25:13,269 --> 00:25:11,360
most appropriate so that's really the

700
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:13,279
just here in a way this is very

701
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:15,679
forward-looking because obviously most

702
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:18,240
sample returns are in the future and we

703
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:19,760
need the community to sort of weigh in

704
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,840
on the importance of it so with that and

705
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:23,679
let me hand that to you steve just for

706
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:26,080
your wrap-up yeah so i thought it'd be

707
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,360
useful to put in one last slide um

708
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:31,360
uh just on where this document might go

709
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:33,840
again this this is meant to be uh open

710
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,720
and i i view the the real value of your

711
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:38,880
fragment as drawing in as much of

712
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:42,000
planetary exploration as possible to ask

713
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:43,200
what are the important questions about

714
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,200
habitability we should be asking in the

715
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:47,520
coming decade um and that's certainly

716
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:49,760
not meant to advocate for one uh mode of

717
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:52,000
explanation exploration over another it

718
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:54,000
definitely resonates with this dave's

719
00:25:57,990 --> 00:25:56,080
comment about uh what types of

720
00:26:00,630 --> 00:25:58,000
measurements are needed and could be

721
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,640
possible in the coming decade um so you

722
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:02,880
know i i suggested in the first that one

723
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,799
might include perspectives on trends of

724
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:06,480
instrument development including

725
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:08,720
measurements that might be possible uh

726
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:10,799
in situ or or from space in the future

727
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:12,240
maybe that aren't that aren't available

728
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:13,120
now

729
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:15,520
um the other aspect is is what other

730
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:17,200
objects should we be should we be

731
00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:18,400
including that aren't discussed here

732
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:20,880
again uh there's an emphasis on

733
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:23,600
um you know mars europa enceladus titan

734
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:25,200
that kind of comes through just on the

735
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:27,840
basis of what was contributed um

736
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:29,600
and i threw in a last question that was

737
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:33,600
just meant to be uh to provoke um a real

738
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,960
breadth of discussion

739
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:36,320
what's the role of human exploration and

740
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:37,200
all this

741
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:38,640
uh so that i'd like to just open it up

742
00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:41,120
for discussion um we've got some

743
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:45,520
uh questions coming in already um

744
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:47,679
can we um uh well

745
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:52,320
should we call it alex uh first alex's

746
00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:55,440
in the air andy you are very staticky if

747
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,279
you're coming in voiceover rp you may

748
00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:00,080
want to hang up and just redial

749
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:01,520
okay

750
00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:04,400
uh but alex are you on the telecom line

751
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:06,480
you can ask your question now

752
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:07,919
yes um

753
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:09,120
so

754
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,080
uh

755
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:12,559
can any of everybody hear me i had i

756
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:13,760
heard static

757
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,120
yeah you're good yeah you're a little

758
00:27:19,269 --> 00:27:17,279
quiet to speak up a bit

759
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:19,279
all right so um

760
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:21,440
i think astrobiology community should

761
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:24,559
reopen debate about uh looking for

762
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:27,039
extinct versus extant extent searching

763
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:29,200
for extinct versus extent life on mars i

764
00:27:32,390 --> 00:27:31,120
mean it's the strategies which are

765
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:32,400
outlined and the requirements are

766
00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:35,600
completely different and it seems like

767
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:37,760
from the side but by not participating

768
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:41,600
in this decision making that there is a

769
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:44,640
kind of implicit

770
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:46,880
going with looking for the extinct life

771
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:48,080
you know searching for the asian

772
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:50,400
biomarkers and going for places for

773
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:52,240
places where the ancient life would have

774
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:53,200
been

775
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:55,919
um and that that's you know focus of

776
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:57,600
curiosity and

777
00:28:01,110 --> 00:27:58,640
uh

778
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:01,120
march to 20 and eventually will become

779
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,200
more simple return

780
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:05,200
i believe in my from my opinion that we

781
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:06,799
need to step back a little and actually

782
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:08,240
look is is that

783
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:10,399
exactly what we want to do you know

784
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:11,840
because there are certainly a very

785
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:13,760
strong arguments against

786
00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:16,399
and radiation as primary one against the

787
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:18,399
uh you know against preservation of

788
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,799
anything complex in the

789
00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:22,320
in the top uh

790
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,000
centimeters of martian soil where we're

791
00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:26,399
going to sample so that concerns me that

792
00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:27,679
we don't even

793
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,480
debate that question that we are

794
00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:32,640
just implicitly going for the extinct

795
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,159
life

796
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:36,320
thank you

797
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,679
i can read yes

798
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:39,440
go ahead

799
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,480
well two things one is if you had life

800
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,640
someplace a million years ago and now

801
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:46,399
you're looking at the remnants of it as

802
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:47,760
bio signatures

803
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:49,600
uh even though you're using past life

804
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:50,880
methods you're actually looking for

805
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:52,480
evidence of extant life because i would

806
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,399
argue that any evidence of life that was

807
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:56,480
around in the last few million years

808
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:57,679
it would be evidence that you have

809
00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:00,480
extamp life on mars so a lot of the past

810
00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:02,799
life methodologies i think are relevant

811
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:04,960
actually to extant life searches

812
00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:06,880
recognizing that where your spacecraft

813
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:08,399
is sitting at the moment might not be

814
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:10,000
habitable but if it was habitable in the

815
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:11,840
last million years or if it reflected

816
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:13,200
materials from a place that was

817
00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:15,039
habitable in the last million years

818
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:16,720
you're essentially doing an extant life

819
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,679
search

820
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:19,760
and making progress on that but i think

821
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:22,159
another key point i should make

822
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:23,200
is that

823
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:25,039
i think a real challenge to people

824
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,159
looking for extant life on mars

825
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:29,919
is to come up with how do we do the

826
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:32,080
spacecraft i mean if you want to go to a

827
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:33,679
high polar latitude and you want to

828
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:35,200
drill down into the ice how is that

829
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:37,520
spacecraft going to be last long enough

830
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:39,520
to do that drilling or how is your

831
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:41,679
spacecraft going to really be effective

832
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:43,760
at detecting subsurface environments and

833
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:45,840
so i i hear you alex i think it's a very

834
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:47,279
important

835
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:49,440
topic that deserves more emphasis but

836
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:51,039
the community really has to start

837
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:52,480
thinking about the realities of a

838
00:29:58,630 --> 00:29:55,120
spacecraft surviving on on the surface

839
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:58,640
of mars and and incorporate that into um

840
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:00,799
you know a plan or a recommendation

841
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,279
another one is these uh recurring slope

842
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,679
linear very exciting potential examples

843
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,360
of fluid in the modern martian

844
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:09,120
environment but these are very

845
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:10,960
challenging places they're on slopes

846
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:13,440
that are unstable and engineers just get

847
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:15,520
nightmares about being told to drive

848
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,520
into one of those environments and so

849
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,440
how do we actually do the surface

850
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,679
exploration in some of these places so

851
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:23,600
not to try to say no to any of this but

852
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:25,039
i think these are the examples of the

853
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:26,640
challenges that the community has to

854
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:29,200
begin to address so i agree it does need

855
00:30:36,149 --> 00:30:34,310
so i'm hearing um

856
00:30:38,549 --> 00:30:36,159
sort of bullet point questions and

857
00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:38,559
alex's questions is a point uh that

858
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:40,000
might be incorporated into the document

859
00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:41,760
which are uh

860
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:43,360
what what are the type what are the best

861
00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:45,679
places specific places i guess landing

862
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:47,840
sites on mars that one would go to look

863
00:30:52,070 --> 00:30:50,080
for habitable versus previously

864
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:52,080
inhabited environments

865
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:54,960
yeah i mean um just to be more specific

866
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:57,360
i just want to want to clarify you you

867
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,600
see you bring in point that uh if

868
00:31:03,190 --> 00:31:01,440
something was was out like a million

869
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:03,200
years and now it's no longer alive then

870
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:04,960
you can use the same techniques

871
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:06,960
yet you know uh

872
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:09,120
for example the state of hydration of

873
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:10,159
the rocks

874
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:13,840
you know it might be uh deadly for for

875
00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:15,440
preservation

876
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:17,520
you know while uh

877
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,880
you know if you're looking for extent

878
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:21,120
life you want to go where the water is

879
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:23,760
you know so the basis debate needs to be

880
00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:25,279
still there to clarify but you know

881
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:26,559
particularly in the application for the

882
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:28,080
future landing sites

883
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:29,840
that's that's all

884
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:31,840
yeah well please send in some questions

885
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:34,240
and sort of frame some of this stuff uh

886
00:31:37,509 --> 00:31:36,000
because i yeah i would i think it really

887
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,519
would be important to try to put some of

888
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:39,600
these challenging questions into the

889
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:42,000
into the document

890
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:43,760
okay steve did you want to go down the

891
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:46,640
list of stuff that's been in the chat or

892
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:48,720
there yeah i wanted to say with the idea

893
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:50,640
of adding to the document if you wanted

894
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:52,000
to put in your bullet point questions

895
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,440
either in the chat or in the document

896
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:55,679
itself later or i don't i don't know if

897
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:58,880
it's open now it'd be great so um

898
00:32:03,509 --> 00:32:00,960
yeah just going down the open chat um

899
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:03,519
britney uh schmidt writes uh

900
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:05,600
miniaturization uh definitely something

901
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:07,120
we should be thinking about i think

902
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:08,640
definitely uh

903
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:10,720
uh yeah where instrumentation is going

904
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,279
in the next next decade is an exciting

905
00:32:17,669 --> 00:32:15,840
question to ask about um

906
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:17,679
how we how the types of questions we can

907
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:18,480
ask

908
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:22,240
will change during that time um

909
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:23,440
right and brittany also raises the

910
00:32:27,269 --> 00:32:26,000
points or suggests uh we're not going to

911
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:27,279
be able to return samples from

912
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:28,559
everywhere but we can send more

913
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:30,320
sophisticated instruments outward i

914
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:34,000
guess that's a that's a comment about um

915
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:38,470
maybe the breadth of science that might

916
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,799
be returned uh from focused uh

917
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,120
exploration missions versus the the

918
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,360
level of input needed uh for sample

919
00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:49,430
did you you just made a comment about

920
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:51,360
brittany's second comment there about

921
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:52,399
yeah

922
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:55,519
here

923
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:58,880
lot of uncertainty about which objects

924
00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:01,120
are going to be higher next ones being

925
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:03,360
addressed and the politics of it all and

926
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:05,200
everything but one thing that could be

927
00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:06,960
generic that would be worth thinking

928
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:09,440
about it's just instrument development

929
00:33:12,310 --> 00:33:10,960
one of the reasons i put that list of

930
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:12,320
measurements in there is to think in

931
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,919
terms of generic measurements that would

932
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:15,200
be useful

933
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:18,159
at an at a number of destinations uh and

934
00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:20,880
and that if the astrobiology community

935
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:22,880
you know advocated for some more

936
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:24,559
development in some of these

937
00:33:28,149 --> 00:33:26,000
by whatever means

938
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:28,159
uh that would be a good investment

939
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:30,559
regardless of which missions turn out to

940
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:32,960
be highest in the queue so

941
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,159
instrument development doesn't

942
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:36,320
necessarily have to be target specific

943
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:38,640
and and you know figuring out how to

944
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:40,880
prioritize and advocate in a way that

945
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:42,720
you're always ready for the the key

946
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:44,399
mission when it comes along i think is a

947
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:50,710
just in case anyone didn't see the

948
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:53,200
comment i put in the text box uh the

949
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:56,720
document is now open for commenting so

950
00:34:01,110 --> 00:33:59,279
if you want to um just in case anyone

951
00:34:03,509 --> 00:34:01,120
hasn't done it before the process is you

952
00:34:05,269 --> 00:34:03,519
just highlight a piece of text choose

953
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:05,279
comment from your right click menu and

954
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:07,440
you can stick the virtual post-it notes

955
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:11,510
okay

956
00:34:15,109 --> 00:34:13,280
john rummel made a number of comments i

957
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:15,119
don't know steve did you wanna have you

958
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:17,919
read those let's see uh yeah

959
00:34:26,069 --> 00:34:20,320
um

960
00:34:28,470 --> 00:34:26,079
john made was a 2020 mission will be the

961
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:28,480
first on the trio that could bring uh

962
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:31,040
that to mars um

963
00:34:33,909 --> 00:34:32,159
that's kind of the line with what you

964
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:33,919
were saying dave about where mars

965
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:35,599
exploration might be headed

966
00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:37,760
um

967
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,679
yeah well the key point from john is

968
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:41,679
regarding you know science or not the

969
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:43,119
any sample that comes back will be

970
00:34:48,069 --> 00:34:44,879
looked for present-day life for

971
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:48,079
planetary protection requirements so uh

972
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,440
but again that

973
00:34:53,109 --> 00:34:51,440
you get getting to alex's point you know

974
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:53,119
where you pick that sample from

975
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:54,720
certainly will affect

976
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:55,599
you know

977
00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:56,639
probably have an effect on the

978
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:59,200
probability that extant life would be

979
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:01,200
somehow reflected in that

980
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:03,119
um you know

981
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:05,359
so there's a selection of sample thing

982
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:06,400
that uh

983
00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:08,079
you know that might uh

984
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:10,640
weigh in but in any case all samples

985
00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:13,200
will be checked for extend life as a

986
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:14,839
requirement

987
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:17,520
um so let's see and he says giving

988
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:19,440
engineers nightmares is not a bad thing

989
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:23,119
sometimes it's required well okay

990
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:24,800
well especially when you want to bring

991
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:26,640
back a sample that's clean enough to be

992
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:27,599
looked at

993
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:30,480
for non-florida life

994
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:33,040
yeah there you go

995
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,160
exactly

996
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:36,560
okay an additional perspective tying in

997
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:38,400
elsewhere john do you just want to

998
00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:40,480
comment to it since you're right there

999
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:43,040
uh yeah it's just that uh you know

1000
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:45,200
oftentimes we think about habitable

1001
00:35:48,470 --> 00:35:47,119
zones as places where we would be

1002
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:48,480
comfortable

1003
00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:53,280
um i think that we tend to even though

1004
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:54,960
we shouldn't

1005
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,160
neglect

1006
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:58,560
sometimes deep sea type organisms and

1007
00:36:01,510 --> 00:36:00,079
other kinds

1008
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:01,520
and if you look at

1009
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:04,560
where organisms might be formed in an

1010
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:05,520
origin

1011
00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:06,560
endeavor

1012
00:36:10,150 --> 00:36:08,480
they may be at these highly energetic

1013
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:10,160
and very

1014
00:36:15,589 --> 00:36:12,560
episodic kinds of places

1015
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:15,599
but where life proliferates and maybe in

1016
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:18,240
greater abundance could be places where

1017
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:20,079
you could never actually have an origin

1018
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:22,960
of life but are nice materially

1019
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:25,359
sufficient and energetically

1020
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:27,920
available type places like a warm little

1021
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:29,280
pool

1022
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:31,920
so i i do think that there's a tie-in

1023
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:34,880
to the origin of life group

1024
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:37,680
because something that might be

1025
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:39,200
challenging

1026
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:41,040
but habitable

1027
00:36:45,030 --> 00:36:41,920
say

1028
00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:45,040
a deep aquifer on mars that's exposed to

1029
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:48,400
some of the weight and volcanism

1030
00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:51,839
might not be the place to go looking for

1031
00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:57,349
yeah

1032
00:37:02,069 --> 00:36:58,880
this reminds me of another key

1033
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:02,079
perspective and that is that

1034
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:04,640
the role that

1035
00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:06,160
the characterization of a habitable

1036
00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:08,320
environment has in supporting the

1037
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,480
detection of biosignatures and what i

1038
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:12,560
mean by that is that if you have a

1039
00:37:15,990 --> 00:37:14,480
habitable environment or as john was

1040
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:16,000
talking about an environment in which

1041
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:17,760
life could begin

1042
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:19,200
you're probably talking about an

1043
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:20,640
environment that's going to create a lot

1044
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:22,400
of features that might mimic bio

1045
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:23,520
signatures

1046
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:25,440
and so in a way

1047
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:27,839
that establishing a bias something as a

1048
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:30,160
definitive bio signature is an exercise

1049
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:32,960
in signal to noise the signal is the is

1050
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:34,960
the life created feature the noise is

1051
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,400
all the other stuff that that

1052
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:38,800
environment creates as chemical or

1053
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:41,440
mineralogical background and you have to

1054
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:43,599
resolve your biosignature signal against

1055
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:46,240
that inhabitable environment noise and

1056
00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:48,880
so just as a process of detecting bio

1057
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:50,720
signatures you've got to characterize

1058
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,599
your noisy background and of course as

1059
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:55,440
you're talking if you're talking about a

1060
00:37:59,910 --> 00:37:57,680
place where life could begin you're

1061
00:38:01,829 --> 00:37:59,920
talking about a place where a sequence

1062
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:01,839
of events is leading up to life and

1063
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:03,760
that's a gray zone between the

1064
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:05,599
non-living and the living and we've got

1065
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:08,079
to be prepared how to navigate that so

1066
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,760
how do you what kind of chemical organic

1067
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:11,280
chemical measurements do you make what

1068
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:13,440
types of observations do you make to

1069
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:15,680
sort of help you figure out you know

1070
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:17,359
what the sources are of all these

1071
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:18,640
interesting features that you're going

1072
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:21,200
to be confronted with so right we're so

1073
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:23,280
good at defining we're so good at

1074
00:38:27,270 --> 00:38:25,920
defining where life starts too

1075
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:27,280
right exactly

1076
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:29,119
and so you know

1077
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,880
part of this is something that can get

1078
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:32,800
you very enthusiastic about making

1079
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:34,960
organic chemical measurements because as

1080
00:38:40,470 --> 00:38:38,000
we all know organic chemistry is so rich

1081
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,480
in its information content that it's a

1082
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:42,960
great indicator of process

1083
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:44,880
but at the same time it's also

1084
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:48,000
challenging to interpret and sending

1085
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:49,680
instruments to other planets that can

1086
00:38:53,589 --> 00:38:51,520
really get into the details of organic

1087
00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:53,599
chemistry these are complex instruments

1088
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:55,760
and i think certainly for mars and

1089
00:38:59,910 --> 00:38:58,160
probably for all objects a big challenge

1090
00:39:01,430 --> 00:38:59,920
for the astrobiology community is how do

1091
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,440
we get more effective at organic

1092
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:03,520
detection and characterization in

1093
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:09,670
uh sean demogal goldman raised a couple

1094
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:11,280
of i think related points but a nice

1095
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:14,480
discussion going on about how in-situ

1096
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:17,040
exploration on earth

1097
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:18,560
could inform

1098
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:19,920
the types of more comprehensive

1099
00:39:25,589 --> 00:39:23,119
investigations uh might be needed uh i'm

1100
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:25,599
just trying to summarize here from my

1101
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:29,119
understanding and sean's point is um

1102
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:32,160
you consider um either in the context of

1103
00:39:36,630 --> 00:39:34,480
exoplanets which are even harder in the

1104
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:36,640
search for habitability uh but think of

1105
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:39,040
you know an ice cover covered world uh

1106
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:41,359
like europa or enceladus

1107
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:43,599
you're looking for surface communication

1108
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:46,320
or the signature of habitability um

1109
00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:48,480
you're presented with uh with challenges

1110
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,480
of understanding uh how those signatures

1111
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,640
evolve but also how to make suited

1112
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:54,480
measurements that'll be necessary

1113
00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:55,920
to understand habitability in that

1114
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:58,079
context

1115
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:00,240
i think that touches on the same kinds

1116
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:02,400
of issues of organic detection that dave

1117
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,240
was describing as well

1118
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:06,000
yeah so i mean a key point is that

1119
00:40:10,310 --> 00:40:07,920
organic matter can be a wonderfully

1120
00:40:12,310 --> 00:40:10,320
detailed environmental indicator but it

1121
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:12,320
but the astrobiology community is really

1122
00:40:16,390 --> 00:40:14,240
the only community out there that is

1123
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:16,400
advocating strongly for organic

1124
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:17,760
measurements and spacecraft at the

1125
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:20,560
moment uh and so there's there's a key

1126
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:21,760
niche that

1127
00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:24,640
the astrobiology community could

1128
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:26,400
could provide for

1129
00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:34,790
and you know organic chemistry

1130
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:36,400
especially in the outer solar system is

1131
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:38,000
it just an indicator processing

1132
00:40:48,310 --> 00:40:46,630
do you want to take any of these text

1133
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,320
chats onto

1134
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:49,760
the voice

1135
00:40:56,069 --> 00:40:53,440
we just lost steve uh oh no you just

1136
00:40:59,670 --> 00:40:56,079
missed your thing uh yeah my my video

1137
00:41:01,910 --> 00:40:59,680
just reset for some some reason um

1138
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:01,920
well let's see jen you you made quite a

1139
00:41:11,109 --> 00:41:09,430
uh you're referring to my comment dave

1140
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:11,119
well yeah anything you want to say you

1141
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:13,599
just you're making a lot of comments

1142
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:16,720
yeah um one was um in the big picture

1143
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:18,880
you know when we go to a planet we have

1144
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:20,880
a limited set of instruments and we have

1145
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:22,960
a limited amount of time

1146
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:25,440
resources to study whatever it is

1147
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,680
respond to study we have specific

1148
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:29,440
questions outlined everything was

1149
00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:31,599
tailored towards that but

1150
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:33,040
in the big picture

1151
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:35,680
that planetary in situ science has

1152
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:38,480
severe limitations in comparison to what

1153
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,200
we do on earth now on earth we go to the

1154
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,960
field or we do something in the lab and

1155
00:41:47,829 --> 00:41:44,880
we can sample you know to our hearts

1156
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:47,839
content and make analyses that are

1157
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:50,240
made on a variety of instruments as many

1158
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:53,280
num many analyses as we want

1159
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:55,280
and uh on instruments that have higher

1160
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:56,560
sensitivity

1161
00:42:02,470 --> 00:41:59,520
there is a complete disconnect

1162
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:02,480
between those two types of

1163
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:04,400
science approaches

1164
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:05,280
and

1165
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:08,160
i think that uh planetary in situ

1166
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:11,119
science would strongly benefit from

1167
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,400
people

1168
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:14,720
doing the comprehensive studies on earth

1169
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:17,359
and and reflecting at what a high

1170
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:19,760
fidelity planetary in situ science would

1171
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:22,160
have provided as far as information goes

1172
00:42:25,829 --> 00:42:23,839
and how we interpret that

1173
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:25,839
and it's something that it's challenging

1174
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:27,599
to do

1175
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,150
so a nice example of synergy between

1176
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:36,480
earth-based and

1177
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:37,839
research and

1178
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:43,589
yeah another thought i had was um and

1179
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,720
this is

1180
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,800
uh this this kind of stems from my own

1181
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:48,480
phd research

1182
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:50,160
is that uh you know

1183
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:51,040
we

1184
00:42:59,829 --> 00:42:58,319
signatures are

1185
00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:59,839
uh when we talk about extraterrestrial

1186
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:01,040
life we don't know what those bio

1187
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:03,040
signatures are we're taking a guess

1188
00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:04,720
based on earth

1189
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:05,680
and

1190
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:07,440
perhaps

1191
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:09,280
those aren't going to be the right ones

1192
00:43:11,829 --> 00:43:10,800
and so

1193
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:11,839
when

1194
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,560
in the long run unless there's some

1195
00:43:18,870 --> 00:43:16,560
martian out there waving at us saying

1196
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,880
hello i'm not so sure that a buyer's

1197
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:20,240
signature is going to convince us that

1198
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:21,760
we have evidence of extraterrestrial

1199
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:22,960
life

1200
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:24,560
we don't know yet it depends on what we

1201
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:27,839
find but the thing that is so unique

1202
00:43:30,790 --> 00:43:29,280
about life is it's part of this

1203
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,800
ecosystem

1204
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:33,119
and it has interactions with the rest of

1205
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:34,640
the environment around it and it leaves

1206
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:37,920
a record of that in both the um extinct

1207
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:39,680
as what the recorded as well as the

1208
00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:43,520
expanse environment and so perhaps

1209
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:45,839
the way we will convince ourselves of

1210
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:47,760
the presence of extraterrestrial life

1211
00:43:53,910 --> 00:43:50,800
will be to understand that ecosystem

1212
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,920
or the record of it and so this is very

1213
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:55,280
much part of

1214
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:56,319
uh

1215
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:58,000
i should say the approach we have been

1216
00:44:01,910 --> 00:44:00,560
taking to planetary science i think fits

1217
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:01,920
this

1218
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:12,309
so in a way i mean one thing you know

1219
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,640
you can do is go to a go to an object

1220
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:16,880
and begin to characterize the past and

1221
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:18,400
present environment there and you just

1222
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,079
keep characterizing it you have a model

1223
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:22,560
about the processes and and and so forth

1224
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:24,000
that are involved

1225
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,680
and you just do that and you and at some

1226
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:27,200
point you suddenly start coming up with

1227
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:29,200
features that you can't explain by your

1228
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:31,440
model which is basically based on

1229
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:34,400
non-biological process and of course and

1230
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:36,000
this is the way to be perhaps most

1231
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:37,920
objective about

1232
00:44:40,870 --> 00:44:39,440
confronting the possibility that you've

1233
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:40,880
got a bio signature because the

1234
00:44:44,950 --> 00:44:42,880
definition of a biosignature is a

1235
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:44,960
something that requires a biological

1236
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:46,880
process so if you can't explain

1237
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:48,880
something with non-biological processes

1238
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:51,040
you might be on to onto something here

1239
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:52,800
in terms of your search for a

1240
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:54,319
biosignature so

1241
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:55,920
again you know the search for

1242
00:44:59,829 --> 00:44:57,920
biosignatures in my view goes through

1243
00:45:01,829 --> 00:44:59,839
the neighborhood of characterizing the

1244
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:01,839
environment the extent to which it might

1245
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:04,960
be habitable and then having a model to

1246
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:06,560
explain what you're seeing and then as

1247
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:09,440
you move forward you may or may not be

1248
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:10,319
uh

1249
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:12,079
getting closer to detecting evidence of

1250
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,680
life yeah and i think i think there was

1251
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:15,680
a request to to split this into two

1252
00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:18,079
documents focusing on habitability and

1253
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:20,160
also on life detection because uh

1254
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,160
habitability is such a such a broad

1255
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,640
issue it's something we're really

1256
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:26,800
trying to understand and planetary

1257
00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:28,480
science

1258
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:31,599
has a huge set of tools that can allow

1259
00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:33,599
us to understand the chemistry of the

1260
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:35,520
solar system the the origin of the

1261
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,309
have a long progression

1262
00:45:46,470 --> 00:45:44,160
that goes from

1263
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:46,480
chemistry not directly related to life

1264
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:49,280
to eventually creating the conditions

1265
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:57,589
okay sean made a key point and um i

1266
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:00,000
think i want to respond to that but

1267
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,240
let's see sean why don't you can you put

1268
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,560
your comments into words

1269
00:46:08,470 --> 00:46:07,200
and then yeah yeah i mean i i i think

1270
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:08,480
you guys have been making great points

1271
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:10,240
and i don't want to imply that you

1272
00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:11,040
weren't

1273
00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:13,839
um or that you were suggesting this but

1274
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,760
i just want to make sure that we also

1275
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:17,680
have space in the document

1276
00:46:20,309 --> 00:46:18,640
for

1277
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:20,319
research that isn't directly tied to

1278
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:22,800
near-term measure right this we need to

1279
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:24,400
do that so that we

1280
00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:26,560
provide the motivations for measurements

1281
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:28,319
further out on the horizon than the next

1282
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,800
decade or two decades and sometimes we

1283
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,400
need things that will never be measured

1284
00:46:35,750 --> 00:46:34,319
to provide context for the measurements

1285
00:46:37,510 --> 00:46:35,760
we can make

1286
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,520
and to just do the fundamental science

1287
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:39,440
of how these planets operate and how

1288
00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:41,280
life might operate or have operated on

1289
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:43,280
those planets um sometimes these things

1290
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:44,880
just aren't uh aren't amenable to

1291
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,560
measurement at all but

1292
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:48,480
we should still be doing them not not

1293
00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:53,190
yeah

1294
00:46:57,349 --> 00:46:55,599
two responses i absolutely agree with

1295
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,359
you that this should not be a focus only

1296
00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:59,040
on near term that we should be looking

1297
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:01,040
at the far term but at the same time

1298
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:02,880
this particular topic that we're

1299
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:05,280
discussing today really is mission

1300
00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:07,520
oriented uh and i think that's what

1301
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:09,359
differentiates it from some of the other

1302
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,520
topic groups which deal with like basics

1303
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:13,920
of habitability and and all of that this

1304
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:15,040
is really

1305
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:17,599
applying astrobiology to missions

1306
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,359
although i totally agree that it should

1307
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:21,280
be off into the future

1308
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:24,319
as far out as we could conceptualize

1309
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:26,319
you know just to keep it keep it open in

1310
00:47:36,390 --> 00:47:33,670
dave do you see john's point just in the

1311
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:36,400
chat window

1312
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:37,119
uh

1313
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:38,880
john you want to

1314
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:41,599
verbalize that

1315
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:44,000
oh just that uh we're looking at special

1316
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:47,200
regions on mars as potential habitats

1317
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,640
and uh so

1318
00:47:54,790 --> 00:47:50,720
looking forward to putting together an

1319
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,800
effort that will update the definitions

1320
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:56,720
and possibly

1321
00:48:02,630 --> 00:47:59,359
do a better job of locating

1322
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:02,640
features that might lead us to believe

1323
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:05,440
that those special region definitions

1324
00:48:08,550 --> 00:48:07,119
could actually be

1325
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:08,560
inclusive

1326
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,160
at those places

1327
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:12,880
so rsls for example are you already

1328
00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:14,079
mentioned

1329
00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:15,760
but those are places where there may in

1330
00:48:20,950 --> 00:48:17,520
fact be

1331
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:20,960
liquid water at cold temperatures with a

1332
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:23,599
large briny content

1333
00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:25,760
and then the question is you know is

1334
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:27,839
there an earth organism that can live in

1335
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,640
there

1336
00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:30,319
we don't define

1337
00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:32,480
special regions on the basis of martian

1338
00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:34,880
organisms but certainly those would be

1339
00:48:38,309 --> 00:48:36,400
places to look

1340
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:38,319
if we were going to go start looking for

1341
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:40,960
martian organisms but anyway that's just

1342
00:48:44,069 --> 00:48:42,640
something that's going to happen over

1343
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:44,079
the next year

1344
00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:44,880
and

1345
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:48,800
i thought i'd throw that into the mix

1346
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:50,640
yeah so i just a general comment from me

1347
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:52,319
is that planetary protection really

1348
00:48:55,990 --> 00:48:54,720
addresses legal requirements and and you

1349
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:56,000
know some just

1350
00:49:00,309 --> 00:48:58,240
proper housekeeping that we need to do

1351
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:00,319
with exploration but there is this

1352
00:49:03,670 --> 00:49:02,160
really i think substantive link between

1353
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:03,680
planetary protection and search for

1354
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:05,440
extant life because

1355
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:07,359
you know that's sort of the essence of

1356
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:09,680
the phenomenon that both of these uh

1357
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:11,839
topics are addressing and so there could

1358
00:49:14,829 --> 00:49:14,000
be some synergy there in terms of

1359
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:14,839
future

1360
00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:17,200
activities this is sean again do you

1361
00:49:20,549 --> 00:49:19,119
guys mind if i just jump in for a minute

1362
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:20,559
sure

1363
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:22,319
so i just want to give an example of the

1364
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:24,559
type of thing i'm talking about um with

1365
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:27,200
with maybe non-mission uh solar system

1366
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,520
habitability topics of research

1367
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:31,440
and this is this is target specific and

1368
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,520
i don't mean to mention this target to

1369
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:35,200
the exclusion of other ideas just as an

1370
00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:36,160
example

1371
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:37,839
imagine the the

1372
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:39,839
hypothesis that there's a potential

1373
00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:42,160
double biosphere on titan where one at

1374
00:49:46,549 --> 00:49:44,240
the surface in these methane ethane

1375
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:46,559
organic lakes and then a second in a

1376
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:49,839
deep deep subsurface water layer now

1377
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:51,680
whether or not that deep subsurface

1378
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:53,440
water layer is habitable or not i think

1379
00:49:56,829 --> 00:49:55,440
is something that we should be exploring

1380
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:56,839
as a community of

1381
00:50:01,030 --> 00:49:59,200
astrobiologists um even though i don't

1382
00:50:02,710 --> 00:50:01,040
see any prospects even in the next

1383
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:02,720
century for testing that with

1384
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:04,240
instrumentation

1385
00:50:09,109 --> 00:50:07,200
but i don't we should be excluding that

1386
00:50:11,430 --> 00:50:09,119
looking at that from a theoretical

1387
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:11,440
perspective because as a community we

1388
00:50:14,309 --> 00:50:12,880
really should be the one i mean if we're

1389
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:14,319
not going to cover that first off who

1390
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:17,040
else is and secondly if one of the goals

1391
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:19,520
of astrobiology is to put together a

1392
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:21,280
list of all the places that alien life

1393
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:23,040
might crop up that's one of them and we

1394
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:24,720
should be exploring that as rigorously

1395
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:27,520
as we can without uh you know a super

1396
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:30,480
drill going to titan and and going down

1397
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:32,319
to that second potentially habitable

1398
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:33,440
layer

1399
00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:35,359
so let me respond to my perspective uh

1400
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:37,119
sean you're speaking about a topic

1401
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,559
that's very close to my heart in my

1402
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:41,040
poster at agu um

1403
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:42,400
i i

1404
00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:45,440
i want to in my own work contribute

1405
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:46,880
those kind of perspectives to these

1406
00:50:51,670 --> 00:50:49,760
documents um but i did view that as

1407
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:51,680
falling into the the broader category

1408
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:54,400
that britney spoke about last week of uh

1409
00:50:59,109 --> 00:50:56,240
you know how to habitable how do

1410
00:51:01,670 --> 00:50:59,119
habitable worlds form uh so i took it as

1411
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:01,680
our goal for this presentation to think

1412
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:04,079
about how planetary exploration informs

1413
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:06,240
habitability that is what are the

1414
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:07,680
results that we're getting from cassini

1415
00:51:11,750 --> 00:51:10,000
for example uh telling us about titan's

1416
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:11,760
interior um

1417
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:14,400
like how how thick the the ice shell is

1418
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:17,520
uh you know and how um

1419
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:19,760
how deep uh the high pressure ice layer

1420
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:22,400
would be and the example that you cite

1421
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:24,079
um

1422
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:26,160
so i i realized we're walking the fine

1423
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:29,680
line uh and i initially wanted to shy

1424
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:31,440
away from mentioning specific missions

1425
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:32,400
at all

1426
00:51:38,230 --> 00:51:34,400
and focus just on things that we can

1427
00:51:40,710 --> 00:51:38,240
learn uh from from planetary exploration

1428
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:43,109
yeah i think that's okay steve i mean if

1429
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:44,800
it's in another part of the

1430
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:45,599
the

1431
00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:46,800
futures

1432
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:48,319
network or roadmap or whatever we're

1433
00:51:51,670 --> 00:51:50,160
calling i think that's okay i just want

1434
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:51,680
to make sure that that sort of stuff is

1435
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:52,559
not

1436
00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:54,079
it needs to be it needs to be part of

1437
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:55,599
what we're talking about over the next

1438
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:56,800
decade or two

1439
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:57,920
and beyond

1440
00:52:02,870 --> 00:51:59,440
john well there's this whole concern

1441
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:02,880
about whether or not a perched ocean

1442
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:04,800
can actually support life

1443
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:06,800
whether or not an original life or just

1444
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:09,200
continuous and how dirty the ice has to

1445
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:10,880
be before it becomes

1446
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:13,359
silicatious enough to be envisioned as a

1447
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:15,440
habitable environment

1448
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:17,680
that's an argument that's used about

1449
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:21,280
ganymede and about callisto as well

1450
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:22,640
sean it'd be great if you could just

1451
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:23,760
send us a

1452
00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:25,760
question sort of a comment about you

1453
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:27,440
know aspects of habitability in the

1454
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:29,200
solar system that are not necessarily

1455
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:31,119
connected with missions but you know

1456
00:52:33,990 --> 00:52:32,480
address some of these fundamental

1457
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:34,000
principles that would be associated with

1458
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,760
our concept of habitability that would

1459
00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:37,119
be great

1460
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:39,040
you got it i'm steve i might uh take a

1461
00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:40,559
look at your abstraction age before i

1462
00:52:44,069 --> 00:52:42,240
put that in there

1463
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:44,079
right here is not yet connected to

1464
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:46,160
mission

1465
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:48,880
in the last uh few minutes that we we

1466
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:52,079
have are there any other topics that

1467
00:52:56,870 --> 00:52:54,240
people would like to raise that haven't

1468
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:56,880
been covered so far or that might be

1469
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:59,680
helpful for the authoring team to

1470
00:53:15,190 --> 00:53:00,800
thing

1471
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:17,109
that's the sound of everyone thinking

1472
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:19,599
deeply

1473
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:21,280
well there's some interesting activity

1474
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:23,839
in the chat window so

1475
00:53:28,390 --> 00:53:26,720
and then i think we got to something

1476
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:28,400
late here that was it was very important

1477
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:30,640
and that is to not be so tied to mission

1478
00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:32,640
cues but to think in a much more

1479
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:34,319
fundamental way about be sure that we

1480
00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:35,760
also think in a very fundamental way

1481
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:36,559
about

1482
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:38,880
habitability in all of its aspects in

1483
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:47,430
okay

1484
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:49,119
if there are

1485
00:53:54,950 --> 00:53:52,160
no other um topics that people want to

1486
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:54,960
introduce at this point let me encourage

1487
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:58,720
you to go over to the document uh and to

1488
00:54:03,190 --> 00:54:01,520
make sure that you annotate it uh with

1489
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:03,200
anywhere that you think you can make a

1490
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,240
useful contribution to that the slides

1491
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:08,400
are available you'll find that there's a

1492
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:10,960
link to a google docs set of them

1493
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:13,839
we haven't made the slides commentable

1494
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:16,000
uh they're read only

1495
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:17,839
we could change that if anyone feels

1496
00:54:20,630 --> 00:54:19,440
that it would be useful to comment

1497
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:20,640
besides but

1498
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:22,319
at this point we're just trying to limit

1499
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:24,960
the conversation to the document just to

1500
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:27,760
make it easy for the authors to have all

1501
00:54:30,790 --> 00:54:29,520
of their thoughts there

1502
00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:30,800
um

1503
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,359
okay just having a look

1504
00:54:37,270 --> 00:54:35,040
right we'll

1505
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:37,280
we'll leave uh gentlemen trying to

1506
00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:40,960
channel in the text box there um

1507
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:43,280
thank you very much everyone that was uh

1508
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:44,559
it was a great and very useful

1509
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:46,480
conversation and uh thank you to our

1510
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:49,920
presenters uh the next webinar is

1511
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:52,480
tomorrow same time whatever your time

1512
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:54,640
zone might be so thank you very much and